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John E. Mack – 2

know what to do with. It’s fearful for many people. But what the film does is it polarizes and simplifies the whole thing. It makes a huge menace out of these beings, which I don’t really see. These ships are just so enormous and threatening in the film, but–through our faith in technology, some good old American true-grit, computer know-how, and a computer nerd like Jeff Goldblum, who finds a virus that– lo-and-behold– was compatible with their computer systems– we destroy the entire alien universe. It’s a kind of hark back to simpler, purer days.

David: Why do you think it is that no hard evidence of alien abduction has ever been encountered?

John: I’ve been reading a book by Patrick Harpur called Daimonic Reality. Daimonic means unseen agency, and it refers to the invisible world that–although immeasurable–may, in fact, be more real than the material world of appearance. If all this is maya, then the daimonic world is the source of reality in a deeper sense. This is the world from which telekinesis, crop-formations, and near-death experiences originate. If you study any of these phenomena– poltergeists, apparitions, the huge variety of psi phenomena that have been looked at, or the massive flood of synchronicities that come upon people when they’re spiritually opening– you discover that none of these phenomena provide the kind of hard material evidence that would satisfy a scientist who is exclusively oriented in a materialist’s world view.

There’s always the tease, the trick, the tantalization. They’re giving you just enough so you know there’s something real going on, but not enough to satisfy proof. Proof in the classic scientific method is best adapted to an entirely material universe. It doesn’t do very well in working with the subtleties of the crossover phenomena, that enter the physical world from some other realm.

David: What do you think is the most compelling evidence for the existence of the abduction phenomenon?

John: That’s a good question. It depends what compels you I suppose. For me, the most compelling evidence is the powerful, consistent accounts of these extraordinary experiences from people that are altogether believable. Now, there are some good photographs and videos of UFO’s. There are some implants that have been studied. But it is the accounts themselves that for me carry the most weight. The thing that makes this all so difficult is that the abduction phenomenon is so elusive. I’m not persuaded myself that all of this is to be taken totally literally. The fact that something is experientially so deep, real, and powerful does not mean that you are dealing principally with advanced types of metals or vehicles, or that other people will necessarily always be able to observe that a person is missing, although some abductees are observed to be missing during these times. But some are not, and I just don’t know in what reality this occurs. To the experiencers their bodies were taken, they’re up there, and it’s real. But it’s tricky in that sense.

David: What do you personally believe is really going on?

John: That they are being abducted, in a sense. Abduction is a bad word. Something very powerful is happening to them. Sometimes they experience that their physical bodies appear to be taken. There are witnesses who report that people are missing. The abductees will report as altogether real that they have been floated through walls, taken up into a spacecraft, subjected to all of these physical, ecological and spiritually-related experiences. It’s totally real. At the same time, I’m not sure how it’s real–in other words, in what dimension it’s occurring. And again, what’s happened to me is this has required that I, in a certain sense, suspend my literal notions of reality, because reality in this sense is not limited to the physical world. People may, in fact, be taken physically, but it’s going to be very hard to prove. I don’t think it should be looked upon so literally. I think that there are some kinds of energies, entities, and daimonic agents that our culture is unaware of.

If you were in an African society you’d have a whole different perspective on this. I’ve worked with African medicine men who have a whole classification of beings that their people encounter. And the beings are completely real in their experience, but they wouldn’t be real to our culture, because we don’t have the senses anymore to know them. As the Poet Rilke said, by daily parrying we have cut off our connection. The senses by which we can know the spirit world have atrophied. I wasn’t prepared for this when I first got started. When people say that I’ve been converted to something, they don’t know that I’m the last person in a certain way that would be converted. I was raised in a

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