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John E. Mack – 2

now–quite a bit more–but who do you count? If you see someone at a conference, and you sit down and have a conservation with him, does that count? Or does it have to be with an interview in your office? Or to say you worked with them, do you have to have two meetings? I mean, what are we talking about? The number we’ve professionally met that have experiences? So at this point I wouldn’t know how to give you accurate figures. I kept track of it for awhile, and I guess after about two hundred I stopped.

David: Are there any people that have alien encounter experiences so frequently that if you left a video camera running on them every night while they sleep, you might film them while they’re having an encounter? Has this ever been tried? I’d be very curious to know what shows up on the video.

John: Oh, people have tried to catch the aliens many times. They’re always trying to that. There’s a couple of times that’s that been done where it gets real tricky. Have you read much about the trickster archetype?

David: I read Patrick Harper’s book Daimonic Reality, which you mentioned earlier. I really liked his idea that these beings may appear in many forms, to many cultures, and that their appearance as super-technologically sophisticated outer space beings may be something akin to a parody or mockery of our culture.

John: Yeah, that’s a good book. Lewis Hyde’s book Trickster Makes This World: Mischief, Myth, and Art is good too. The trickster is the cosmic element that confounds the Western mind. In other words, when we try to get too literal, and pin down reality, a trickster takes the whole cart of apples and tips it over. And it falls all over the place. An example would be, somebody’s trying to catch the aliens by videotaping. You know, why not? They come in and they take people. Why can’t we can videotape it? There are cases where the videotape stops at a certain point, something goes on, and starts again fifteen minutes later. And the person says, hey, it was off while I was having the experience. Now, did some human being come in and switch it off? Or is this the trickster at work here? I don’t know. But there’s obviously been efforts to video somebody being taken. And this is why I think this is not a very fruitful line of research, to try to nail these down, because the phenomenon, by its very nature, does not lend itself to being nailed down. It’s almost as if whatever the intelligence is behind this will not give heed, or pay attention, or be helpful to anybody that tries to pin it down in that sort of low-consciousness way.

David: I’m curious, is there anybody in your sample who’s had an alien abduction experience who is gay?

John: Oh sure.

David: Has anyone ever reported a gay sexual encounter during an alien abduction experience? The erotic encounters aboard the ship are always for breeding it seems, so I wonder if there have ever been gay alien sexual encounters.

John: There’s certainly been a number of homosexuals who I’ve seen who’ve had encounter experiences. They may not have had a staged sexual encounter when this sperm sample business and all that goes on. I don’t think they have. The only thing that maybe wouldn’t happen is the staged heterosexual intercourse, or something like that. I don’t know what percentage of gay experiencers I’ve seen, so I can’t really say for sure. I may not be the best person to ask about that. Somebody probably has done a study of this. I’ve seen a few gay people, but obviously the elements that are involved in their experience would be slightly different.

David: I’ve seen a number of authors try to draw parallels between the Satanic Ritual Abuse reports and the alien abduction phenomenon. Do you see any type of relationship between these two phenomena?

John: I’ve thought about that quite a lot, and I have cases where a person has experienced both. In both instances you have the problem of difficulty in the kind of literal pinning it down. I read about a study, which I think was reported in the New York Times, in which somebody interviewed five thousand people–police officers from different precincts and mental health professionals–and no one had ever been able to confirm any organized Satanic rings, theRosemary’s Baby sort of thing, that were actually engaged in these practices. This is interesting because the people that have the experiences are absolutely honest in reporting this like it literally happened, and they can even have marks on their bodies. I used to get into arguments with them–can you prove this really happened? I don’t do that anymore, because I don’t think it’s the important question. But I think the experience is completely real in some sense. I question whether

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