Dean Radin – 2
what is considered to be an interesting thing to do, is probably all bubbling up out of the same source. Science fiction writers are just good at making a story out of it.
David: And it influenced you as a child too.
Dean: Oh yeah. That, folk tales, and fairy tales. The fairy tales are so rich with a mythological suggestion as to what’s actually going on that I’ve paid a lot of attention to it. I’ve probably learned more about archetypal structures of the world through fairy tales than anything else. Many times actually, and even in my daily work, I have this sense that archetypes are alive, almost in a morphogenetic way, and that they are influences that we can’t quite perceive but they actually do make things happen, or more precisely they guide things to happen. The presence of archetypes can almost be palpable at times. And I’ve felt that, sometimes in terms of the direction of research, or even in something as mundane as analyzing an experiment, that there is an archetypal push underneath it.
David: I tend to see archetypes as the result of a state of consciousness. When you’re in a certain state–let’s call it the collective consciousness, as opposed to the collective unconscious–you see things in an mythic or neurogenetic way, what seems to be the prototype behind ordinary appearance. I’ve experienced certain states where you just look at someone’s face and see all the archetypes unfolding, and they take on a sense of reality. Whereas in other states, archetypes become more like dream images, or something that’s mostly unreal.
Dean: Right. But then see the underlying question is (and I have to think about this in more depth than I have so far, because next May I’m going to give a talk on the ontological reality of the imaginal world) if you have a dream, or you’re in some odd altered state, and you perceive the world differently does that mean that the world is actually different? Or is the dream merely a hallucination?
If you have a dream, lucid or otherwise, and in the dream you imagine that you’re walking down the street and a green monster jumps out of a building, we would immediately all say that’s not real. That was just your fantasy. But could there be any ontological reality to it? We know, for example, from remote viewing experiments conducted under controlled conditions, that it is possible to dream or imagine that there’s something on the other side of a wall, and sure enough it really is there in objective reality. It wasn’t just a personal fantasy. So sometimes in the so-called imaginal states the lines between subjective and objective begin to blur.
David: And if you acted in that state?
Dean: If you did an action in the dream, and that action was observable to people not just in your dream, but everywhere else, then it says that the ontology of your imagination somehow impinged on the world itself. And I think that does happen. It happens probably more often than we know, but not in the way that we’re normally aware of. It certainly happens in our experiments, because a psychic experiment is precisely doing that. It’s taking imagination– since the stuff of psi originates inside the head–and it attempts to change or describe the world in such a way that other people can witness it. And we do see those results. So we know that at least on the micro-scale that it’s true. Whether it scales up to the realm where we would all literally see a dreamed green monster as Godzilla, I don’t know. But I do think about large-scale events like the religious miracle at Fatima, in which tens of thousands of people saw very odd things in the sky, things suggestive of a blurring between objective and subjective.
David: The boundaries can get blurry.
Dean: Yeah. It becomes very obvious in the whole UFO business, with visions of the Virgin Mary, and that sort of thing–where lots and lots of people will see something. All will agree that something was seen, but nobody has a very clear idea about what it was.
David: Or also when people who suffer from Multiple Personality Disorder switch personalities, there are sometimes physical changes in the body that happen almost instantaneously, that really aren’t explainable in conventional ways.
Dean: Right, and there you have something like an imaginal change. You imagine that your personality changes, and the body changes as well, apparently too quickly for it to change otherwise. So they blur into each other. They mix in interesting ways.
David: What was your motivation for writing The Conscious Universe?
Dean: Partly it was frustration in dealing with more